Comments on: What do you do with the crazies down in Texas? http://www.here-in-idaho.com/2008/04/14/what-do-you-do-with-the-crazies-down-in-texas/ Do I look like some kind of joker to you? Wed, 20 Aug 2008 23:31:44 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: trouble http://www.here-in-idaho.com/2008/04/14/what-do-you-do-with-the-crazies-down-in-texas/#comment-25798 trouble Wed, 23 Apr 2008 22:40:25 +0000 http://www.here-in-idaho.com/2008/04/14/what-do-you-do-with-the-crazies-down-in-texas/#comment-25798 Oh, god, I'm illiterate. I knew lots of polygamists, or something like that. Oh, god, I’m illiterate. I knew lots of polygamists, or something like that.

]]> By: trouble http://www.here-in-idaho.com/2008/04/14/what-do-you-do-with-the-crazies-down-in-texas/#comment-25797 trouble Wed, 23 Apr 2008 22:39:59 +0000 http://www.here-in-idaho.com/2008/04/14/what-do-you-do-with-the-crazies-down-in-texas/#comment-25797 This is where tolerant me, who lived for Salt Lake City for 10 years and now lots of polygamists, runs smack dab into child protective me, who worked with kids who were abused and neglected. Because, when allegations of child sexual abuse are made, then you have to remove and investigate FIRST. As a society, we have a responsibility to protect all children from being victimized. On the other hand, if a person wants to homeschool their kids and teach them to worship the flying spaghetti monster and hide under beds when buses drive by, we, to some degree, have to let that go. Because this is America, after all. And people are allowed to be weird. (I'm not implying that all homeschoolers do this, just that we have to distinguish between abuse and letting parents choose how their children will be raised). Just bear in mind that the reason these people are in Texas instead of Utah and/or Arizona is that they were fleeing being investigated for abuse, both of the welfare system, and abuse of the children themselves. And, of course, the abuse of the women involved. So, the men in this case, and some of teh women who are clearly complicit in the abuse, need to be removed from contact with the kids. But I don't think polygamy should be illegal, having said that. For adults. This is where tolerant me, who lived for Salt Lake City for 10 years and now lots of polygamists, runs smack dab into child protective me, who worked with kids who were abused and neglected. Because, when allegations of child sexual abuse are made, then you have to remove and investigate FIRST. As a society, we have a responsibility to protect all children from being victimized.

On the other hand, if a person wants to homeschool their kids and teach them to worship the flying spaghetti monster and hide under beds when buses drive by, we, to some degree, have to let that go. Because this is America, after all. And people are allowed to be weird.

(I’m not implying that all homeschoolers do this, just that we have to distinguish between abuse and letting parents choose how their children will be raised). Just bear in mind that the reason these people are in Texas instead of Utah and/or Arizona is that they were fleeing being investigated for abuse, both of the welfare system, and abuse of the children themselves. And, of course, the abuse of the women involved. So, the men in this case, and some of teh women who are clearly complicit in the abuse, need to be removed from contact with the kids.

But I don’t think polygamy should be illegal, having said that. For adults.

]]> By: Mark http://www.here-in-idaho.com/2008/04/14/what-do-you-do-with-the-crazies-down-in-texas/#comment-25612 Mark Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:13:28 +0000 http://www.here-in-idaho.com/2008/04/14/what-do-you-do-with-the-crazies-down-in-texas/#comment-25612 Here's my two cents: I know some poly people. I use poly instead of polygamy because the media tends to lump all poly people together. I agree with what was said in previously. Polygamy, polyandry, polyamory or what ever other brand of group marriage you like should happen between consenting non-coerced adults. If one person in the marriage doesn't want to add another wife or husband, then they should not be forced to becuase thier spouse want that. IMHO, anyone who gets married would be better off finishing school, getting a college degree, working and living on thier own before they even consider marriage. Be informed and educated. The families I know are middle class, college educated, non-denominational or athiest. Unless you knew that woman you thought was a friend or live in nanny, you wouldn't have a clue they were poly. Thier kids go to public school, play in band and football, want to wear Nikes and own ipods and generally are pains in the butt. Thier normal except there is one or two extra moms or dads. The Texas thing was law breaking plain and simple. If any man forces a girl to marry him and have sex, he is a sexual predator and that is abuse. If a man was molesting girls and there was a underage prostituition ring or child sexual abuse ring, they should be arrested and dealt with to the harshest measures of the law. The thing that makes this case stand out from a mongamous man or woman molesting his congregation, students, nieghbors kids, or relatives is the fact that you have a large community that sees underage marriage as godly. So you have a higher chance of abuse in an isolated community that follows thier own version of god's rules. I know 14 and 15 year olds who have gotten pregnant and married with parent permission but not because they were brainwashed or forced to but because they thought they met the right guy ("He loves me" she wails to her parents who just don't "understand." puh-leeze!) CPS isn't showing up in these cases. The parents are just viewed as bad parents. What makes this different is the fact that the girls on this compound are being brainwashed, abused and forced. Should they have been able to take them all away based on an allegation of a girl that no one can find who is married to a man who's state appointed parole officer insist was in Utah the whole time. Those kids needed help but Texas CPS took kids away from parents without even knowing if they were in fact being abused. Take the kids now, prove they were abused later. How scary. One poly family called CPS and explained thier living situation (two moms, both college educated with careers in photography and medicine and a college educated dad working as an engineer.) The kids attend public school, school activities, make passing grades are not even spanked because the parents believe in talking versuses coporal punishment. One teen works at Mcdonalds and is saving her money for a car and clothes. The other kids want to be rockstars, chefs, movie stars and whatever strikes thier fancy that weak. No one is sexualy abused and the family encourages thier kids to go to college, get a job and then consider marriage. They don't push monogamy or poly but just wait for the kids to grow up and make thier own choices. CPS told them that with no evidence of abuse, they could not take the kids. Poly--to be or not to be....LOL My two cents. Here’s my two cents:

I know some poly people. I use poly instead of polygamy because the media tends to lump all poly people together. I agree with what was said in previously. Polygamy, polyandry, polyamory or what ever other brand of group marriage you like should happen between consenting non-coerced adults. If one person in the marriage doesn’t want to add another wife or husband, then they should not be forced to becuase thier spouse want that. IMHO, anyone who gets married would be better off finishing school, getting a college degree, working and living on thier own before they even consider marriage. Be informed and educated. The families I know are middle class, college educated, non-denominational or athiest. Unless you knew that woman you thought was a friend or live in nanny, you wouldn’t have a clue they were poly. Thier kids go to public school, play in band and football, want to wear Nikes and own ipods and generally are pains in the butt.
Thier normal except there is one or two extra moms or dads.

The Texas thing was law breaking plain and simple. If any man forces a girl to marry him and have sex, he is a sexual predator and that is abuse. If a man was molesting girls and there was a underage prostituition ring or child sexual abuse ring, they should be arrested and dealt with to the harshest measures of the law. The thing that makes this case stand out from a mongamous man or woman molesting his congregation, students, nieghbors kids, or relatives is the fact that you have a large community that sees underage marriage as godly. So you have a higher chance of abuse in an isolated community that follows thier own version of god’s rules. I know 14 and 15 year olds who have gotten pregnant and married with parent permission but not because they were brainwashed or forced to but because they thought they met the right guy (”He loves me” she wails to her parents who just don’t “understand.” puh-leeze!) CPS isn’t showing up in these cases. The parents are just viewed as bad parents. What makes this different is the fact that the girls on this compound are being brainwashed, abused and forced. Should they have been able to take them all away based on an allegation of a girl that no one can find who is married to a man who’s state appointed parole officer insist was in Utah the whole time. Those kids needed help but Texas CPS took kids away from parents without even knowing if they were in fact being abused. Take the kids now, prove they were abused later. How scary. One poly family called CPS and explained thier living situation (two moms, both college educated with careers in photography and medicine and a college educated dad working as an engineer.) The kids attend public school, school activities, make passing grades are not even spanked because the parents believe in talking versuses coporal punishment. One teen works at Mcdonalds and is saving her money for a car and clothes. The other kids want to be rockstars, chefs, movie stars and whatever strikes thier fancy that weak. No one is sexualy abused and the family encourages thier kids to go to college, get a job and then consider marriage. They don’t push monogamy or poly but just wait for the kids to grow up and make thier own choices. CPS told them that with no evidence of abuse, they could not take the kids.

Poly–to be or not to be….LOL

My two cents.

]]> By: brenj http://www.here-in-idaho.com/2008/04/14/what-do-you-do-with-the-crazies-down-in-texas/#comment-25597 brenj Fri, 18 Apr 2008 18:31:26 +0000 http://www.here-in-idaho.com/2008/04/14/what-do-you-do-with-the-crazies-down-in-texas/#comment-25597 P.S. You may find some of the 'articles' on this site interesting: http://www.childbrides.org/carolyn.html P.S. You may find some of the ‘articles’ on this site interesting: http://www.childbrides.org/carolyn.html

]]> By: brenj http://www.here-in-idaho.com/2008/04/14/what-do-you-do-with-the-crazies-down-in-texas/#comment-25596 brenj Fri, 18 Apr 2008 18:29:56 +0000 http://www.here-in-idaho.com/2008/04/14/what-do-you-do-with-the-crazies-down-in-texas/#comment-25596 This is an interesting post. I thought I heard at one point that the mothers were allowed to go with the children and in fact, some of them did. I'm interested to see what will happen next. I can't imagine it's going to be easy to find foster homes for all those children...I read yesterday that they want to keep siblings together. Hah! And these are kids, most of whom, don't even have birth certificates! This is an interesting post. I thought I heard at one point that the mothers were allowed to go with the children and in fact, some of them did. I’m interested to see what will happen next. I can’t imagine it’s going to be easy to find foster homes for all those children…I read yesterday that they want to keep siblings together. Hah! And these are kids, most of whom, don’t even have birth certificates!

]]> By: jsknew http://www.here-in-idaho.com/2008/04/14/what-do-you-do-with-the-crazies-down-in-texas/#comment-25591 jsknew Fri, 18 Apr 2008 16:54:38 +0000 http://www.here-in-idaho.com/2008/04/14/what-do-you-do-with-the-crazies-down-in-texas/#comment-25591 so i say they should let all the women go back with the promise to return their children when and if they agree to straighten their platinum dyed hair into cute little dos, redress themselves in yoga pants, layered tank tops, oversized bug-eyed shades, sparkly cell phones and purses with tiny pooches poking out, and promise to spend all of their time at the newly opened compound coffee house/spa while nannies watch all of their 416 children. THEN they'd be normal. like us. this situation reminds me of the fear of flight mentality. people freak out about planes crashing...get nervous to fly...yet they'll hop into their car and fly down the freeway at speeds in excess of 70mph without flinching. why does the fear of mass casualty make a single person more scared for their one little life? and why does the brainwashing of 400 children in one small area seem so much more harmful than the millions of them being affected by the same type of garbage everywhere you look? which is more dangerous? you tell me. so i say they should let all the women go back with the promise to return their children when and if they agree to straighten their platinum dyed hair into cute little dos, redress themselves in yoga pants, layered tank tops, oversized bug-eyed shades, sparkly cell phones and purses with tiny pooches poking out, and promise to spend all of their time at the newly opened compound coffee house/spa while nannies watch all of their 416 children.
THEN they’d be normal. like us.
this situation reminds me of the fear of flight mentality. people freak out about planes crashing…get nervous to fly…yet they’ll hop into their car and fly down the freeway at speeds in excess of 70mph without flinching. why does the fear of mass casualty make a single person more scared for their one little life? and why does the brainwashing of 400 children in one small area seem so much more harmful than the millions of them being affected by the same type of garbage everywhere you look? which is more dangerous? you tell me.

]]> By: Snadrs http://www.here-in-idaho.com/2008/04/14/what-do-you-do-with-the-crazies-down-in-texas/#comment-25541 Snadrs Thu, 17 Apr 2008 13:59:15 +0000 http://www.here-in-idaho.com/2008/04/14/what-do-you-do-with-the-crazies-down-in-texas/#comment-25541 I went back and read your post, and my post again, and I'm not upset with you at all. I hope you know that. I just felt like I was coming to the defense of the people in law enforcement who often can't tell people why they are doing something until it all comes out in a trial or hearing. I really do understand how hard it is to watch the moms and sympathize with those kids, most of whom really don't believe that they have been abused because they honestly believe what they are doing is right. I am very libertarian in most of my beliefs... "Get the Republicans out of my bedroom and the Democrats out of my wallet..." and I don't even think I have that much of a problem with polygamy between consenting adults. There are HUGE problems with our legal system and they are problems that will probably never be fixed. I just hated hearing what CPS was doing being compared with Nazi Germany (not by you, just from the parents at the compound) because they and their kids will have a hearing, in front of a judge, with a whole ton of lawyers (some of whom would LOVE to prove the government wrong in such a high-profile case) instead of going to forced labor camps and gas chambers, and not because of their race, but because of their actions. Okay, I've really said enough, yet again. I miss your noggin and love your blog. :) I went back and read your post, and my post again, and I’m not upset with you at all. I hope you know that. I just felt like I was coming to the defense of the people in law enforcement who often can’t tell people why they are doing something until it all comes out in a trial or hearing. I really do understand how hard it is to watch the moms and sympathize with those kids, most of whom really don’t believe that they have been abused because they honestly believe what they are doing is right.

I am very libertarian in most of my beliefs… “Get the Republicans out of my bedroom and the Democrats out of my wallet…” and I don’t even think I have that much of a problem with polygamy between consenting adults. There are HUGE problems with our legal system and they are problems that will probably never be fixed. I just hated hearing what CPS was doing being compared with Nazi Germany (not by you, just from the parents at the compound) because they and their kids will have a hearing, in front of a judge, with a whole ton of lawyers (some of whom would LOVE to prove the government wrong in such a high-profile case) instead of going to forced labor camps and gas chambers, and not because of their race, but because of their actions.

Okay, I’ve really said enough, yet again. I miss your noggin and love your blog. :)

]]> By: Kristi http://www.here-in-idaho.com/2008/04/14/what-do-you-do-with-the-crazies-down-in-texas/#comment-25527 Kristi Thu, 17 Apr 2008 03:17:17 +0000 http://www.here-in-idaho.com/2008/04/14/what-do-you-do-with-the-crazies-down-in-texas/#comment-25527 This answered a lot of my questions. See what happens when I start jibber jabbering about something I don't know much about? I get schooled. Thanks, guys. This answered a lot of my questions. See what happens when I start jibber jabbering about something I don’t know much about?

I get schooled. Thanks, guys.

]]> By: daina http://www.here-in-idaho.com/2008/04/14/what-do-you-do-with-the-crazies-down-in-texas/#comment-25519 daina Wed, 16 Apr 2008 20:57:58 +0000 http://www.here-in-idaho.com/2008/04/14/what-do-you-do-with-the-crazies-down-in-texas/#comment-25519 omg. i was trying to think of the place where i had seen hair like that ALL MORNING (seemingly forgot about it around lunchtime) and remembered again when reading your post. thank you much for identifying the gibson girl trend among cultists!! omg. i was trying to think of the place where i had seen hair like that ALL MORNING (seemingly forgot about it around lunchtime) and remembered again when reading your post. thank you much for identifying the gibson girl trend among cultists!!

]]> By: Snadrs http://www.here-in-idaho.com/2008/04/14/what-do-you-do-with-the-crazies-down-in-texas/#comment-25512 Snadrs Wed, 16 Apr 2008 14:59:58 +0000 http://www.here-in-idaho.com/2008/04/14/what-do-you-do-with-the-crazies-down-in-texas/#comment-25512 I completely understand how hard it is to watch those kids being pulled away from their parents. It is a heart-wrenching thought, but it is one to me at least, that is surpassed by the thought of 50 year old men having loveless sex with 12 year old girls and teaching them that is what God expects from them. (pulls out soap box) The law is that an adult can't have sex with a kid under 18. Even though these people have religious beliefs that say that old men can and should have sex with little girls as soon as they are of reproductive age, their religious beliefs don't automatically play a trump card (just like if I said it was my religious belief to murder someone I believe is evil... I would still have to go to jail.) CPS had probable cause to believe that was occurring because one 16 year old pregnant girl with a 2 year old child said that it had happened to her. The rumor around here is that there was an undercover officer in the compound for quite some time before this girl came forward and that there was some concern that harm would come to the other children, and so they removed them all. (The image of these people out alone on a 17,000 acre ranch killing kids and burying them before anyone knew what happened is one scenario.) Avoiding the risk of having greater harm come to those kids was, in law enforcement's opinion, worth the short term separation of these kids and their parents. There is an inherent value in removing those older kids who have been "brainwashed" into their beliefs to be away from those people who have "brainwashed" them... to see that there are people who want to hear what has happened to them without their parents physically present, staring at them threatening punishment for saying something wrong. Unfortunately, CPS can't go into any roach-infested house with a crackhead mom and take her kids away until they have probable cause there, too. The law that protects you and me from having law enforcement come and take our kids away without reason also protects those crackhead moms, and I believe (because I have seen it) that CPS takes those kids away as soon as they legally can. CPS and prosecutors can't choose which cases they have evidence to do something about and work diligently (as a whole... I know there are bad CPS officers as well as bad prosecutors that spoil the reputations of the good ones who do a thankless job) to do what they can within the restraints of the law. I know it looks like their efforts could best be spent on "worse" families, but I don't believe that they are stopping pursuing those families to go after the crazy religious people, other than for the short amout of time it takes to process this situation. I do know that hundreds of lawyers from around here have stepped forward to represent those kids free of charge and that the hearings about whether or not they can go back home are starting immediately. I don't believe that CPS or the prosecutors have any desire to break up families in which there is no abuse, and almost always err on the side of keeping families together, especially young children and moms, so that leads me to believe that they would not have done this unless they had reason. (That isn't just blind faith in the system... law enforcement has to answer to the childrens' attorneys and to a judge and can't go on "witch-hunts" without repurcussions.) I know what my faith in God has carried me through in the past year, and I know that most of those people have faith that will carry them through a few-day separation from their kids (or parents). I hope very much that most of those kids are able to return to a home that protects their hearts, bodies and minds until they are adults. That's all I have to say about that. Amen and goodnight. (pushes soap box back under the bed) I completely understand how hard it is to watch those kids being pulled away from their parents. It is a heart-wrenching thought, but it is one to me at least, that is surpassed by the thought of 50 year old men having loveless sex with 12 year old girls and teaching them that is what God expects from them.

(pulls out soap box)

The law is that an adult can’t have sex with a kid under 18. Even though these people have religious beliefs that say that old men can and should have sex with little girls as soon as they are of reproductive age, their religious beliefs don’t automatically play a trump card (just like if I said it was my religious belief to murder someone I believe is evil… I would still have to go to jail.) CPS had probable cause to believe that was occurring because one 16 year old pregnant girl with a 2 year old child said that it had happened to her. The rumor around here is that there was an undercover officer in the compound for quite some time before this girl came forward and that there was some concern that harm would come to the other children, and so they removed them all. (The image of these people out alone on a 17,000 acre ranch killing kids and burying them before anyone knew what happened is one scenario.)

Avoiding the risk of having greater harm come to those kids was, in law enforcement’s opinion, worth the short term separation of these kids and their parents. There is an inherent value in removing those older kids who have been “brainwashed” into their beliefs to be away from those people who have “brainwashed” them… to see that there are people who want to hear what has happened to them without their parents physically present, staring at them threatening punishment for saying something wrong.

Unfortunately, CPS can’t go into any roach-infested house with a crackhead mom and take her kids away until they have probable cause there, too. The law that protects you and me from having law enforcement come and take our kids away without reason also protects those crackhead moms, and I believe (because I have seen it) that CPS takes those kids away as soon as they legally can. CPS and prosecutors can’t choose which cases they have evidence to do something about and work diligently (as a whole… I know there are bad CPS officers as well as bad prosecutors that spoil the reputations of the good ones who do a thankless job) to do what they can within the restraints of the law. I know it looks like their efforts could best be spent on “worse” families, but I don’t believe that they are stopping pursuing those families to go after the crazy religious people, other than for the short amout of time it takes to process this situation. I do know that hundreds of lawyers from around here have stepped forward to represent those kids free of charge and that the hearings about whether or not they can go back home are starting immediately.

I don’t believe that CPS or the prosecutors have any desire to break up families in which there is no abuse, and almost always err on the side of keeping families together, especially young children and moms, so that leads me to believe that they would not have done this unless they had reason. (That isn’t just blind faith in the system… law enforcement has to answer to the childrens’ attorneys and to a judge and can’t go on “witch-hunts” without repurcussions.)

I know what my faith in God has carried me through in the past year, and I know that most of those people have faith that will carry them through a few-day separation from their kids (or parents). I hope very much that most of those kids are able to return to a home that protects their hearts, bodies and minds until they are adults.

That’s all I have to say about that. Amen and goodnight.
(pushes soap box back under the bed)

]]>